GURPSnet-Digest Friday, January 24 2003 Volume 04 : Number 3769 In this issue: range issues Re: [Fwd: Re: Might-Spell and ST and Fatigue] Re: Resisted Spells Re: range issues Re: Resisted Spells Re: Resisted Spells Re: range issues Re: [Fwd: Re: Might-Spell and ST and Fatigue] Re: Resisted Spells Re: range issues Re: Good magic systems Re: range issues Re: range issues Re: range issues Re: range issues Re: Resisted Spells Re: Resisted Spells Re: Good magic systems See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the GURPSnet-L or GURPSnet-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 16:42:32 +0100 (MEZ) From: Johannes Trimmel Subject: range issues 1) Why do knifes have range C,1 for swing and C for thr? 2) longer swords seem to get 1,2 range rather then 2 range for swing attacks. Should this simulate hitting the foe with the strong of your blade? Shouldn't then using swing at range 1 mean that you get a damage reduction for less lever, only cr damage for some swords and that you should be subject to the first -1 or -2 of close combat penalities? This is especially meant for 2 handed use (see below) 3) Bastard swords (and variations like Katanas) Should they have better reach if used 1 handed? I can imagine that with 1H use you will be more versantile about your reach since if you turn your body you can change your reach a bit and with 2H use you can turn less without your body getting in the way of one of your arms. I don't know enough about 2H sword use to really judge how much that restricts you. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Better a solution that makes the problem worse then no solution at all. Johannes Trimmel ++++++++++++++++ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 00:48:25 +0900 From: tbone Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: Might-Spell and ST and Fatigue] On Tuesday, January 21, 2003, at 06:24 PM, Thomas Ackermann wrote: >> But when I see a rule like that, I don't assume that SJG is saying, >> "Apply such-and-such fatigue for a battle. Any battle, I don't care >> what the length or intensity or any other circumstances, just do it >> like this and stop asking questions." : ) Rather, I take this sort of >> rule to be an unwritten statement like, "Fatigue for a battle is far >> too complex to cover in detail here; here's a guideline for an >> undefined 'typical' battlefield skirmish. Use it where it feels right, >> but otherwise, you'll have to use your own judgment in working things >> to your liking." That's how I read rules like that. > > And, of course, you are right! Contrary to my last, unreasonable > emails :-) Well, it's not "unreasonable" to point out when a rule doesn't work! I only want to suggest that SJG would probably *agree* with you that this one rule doesn't work in many cases. They'd probably say, "We know, we know, it was just a quick placeholder..." (Actually, what's unreasonable is my pretending to read people's minds here... : / ) > I have found something that may be a solution for me. > I quite much like Free Software, GNU and things alike. And well you should! Great stuff. > There seems to > be something like that for RPG as well. It is called DragonNet, when i > recall correctly, but i did not look into it ... i will later compare > it to GURPS! I had never heard of this. Very interesting; thanks for the pointer. > Open Systems Development Philosophy > ----------------------------------- > Unix is a popular computer operating system for two primary reasons. > One: > it's free (usually), and Two it uses an open system architecture. > Computer > operating systems and RPG's actually have a lot in common. They are > simply > a set of logical rules combined with a syntax. This combination > results in > a system where user defined modules interact. RPG mechanics are also a > set > of rules and syntax for the purpose of role playing or story-telling. > If > Unix can be successful as a free system with open system architecture, > DragonNet should be successful as a free open-system RPG. Which reminds me of a time, once, when I found myself in idle thought, and began comparing RPG systems to computer operating systems. You know, like those jokes about, "If UNIX were a car, it'd be a.... If Windows were a car, it'd be a... ", but instead I was thinking, "If GURPS were an operating system, it'd be like..." Fortunately, I caught myself and stopped -- "Gods, man, what are you DOING!?", I cried. I was not merely adding geekiness atop geekiness, but was actually *multiplying* geekiness by itself! I stood on the brink of triggering the exponentially-building "Poindexter Syndrome", whose chain-reaction geeksplosion would have torn a rift in the socio-normalcy continuum and plunged the entire world into eternal dorkness. Anyway, back on topic: > Clean ascii: > > > HTML (and nicer): > > > But it seems to be abandoned already :-( Hmm. Well, I probably won't get around to reading it all (OK, I'll be honest, I'm sure I won't read it all), but a skim reveals some interesting bits. For one: If one does like the idea of multiple "IQ" attributes to replace GURPS' single att, I think DragonNet presents a reasonable selection. But anyway, should you attempt to rework fatigue rules, my main suggestion would be simply to limit the ST loss effect (you're right that GURPS can be too severe here). Be sure to get HT involved in things (reducing Fatigue loss on a HT roll, for example, or switching to Fatigue=HT). And be sure to apply other realistic penalties that GURPS ignores (penalties to effective IQ and DX, possibly to HT and Will... definitely penalties to Alertness... and so on.) T. Bone tbone@io.com T. Bone's GURPS Diner http://www.io.com/~tbone/gurps/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 01:04:58 +0900 From: tbone Subject: Re: Resisted Spells On Tuesday, January 21, 2003, at 08:29 AM, Thomas Ackermann wrote: > The problem is, that i see GURPS Magic and Grimoire as *completely* > unbalanced at best! > That whole construction is such arbritrary, that i sometime cannot > believe that itīs from the same people who made GURPS core rules, that > sometimes even shine ... I won't argue with your many examples; I suppose many players find the magic system feels fine overall, but many others don't. It is, after all, built on the "arbitrary spell" method of pre-defined spell effects, whose only "balance check" is the authors' beliefs that the spells are balanced. I'm curious, though: have you seen anything that does achieve good balance? Take D&D, for example -- it has "arbitrary" spells like GURPS, in that each spell has specific, given effects; does D&D's set of spells, and the rules for using them, create a "balance" that GURPS misses? I myself don't have enough experience to be able to say. The only system I know of -- and there may be many I don't know of -- with non-arbitrary spells is HERO, where spells are "built" one at a time using exactly the same components used to build every and any ability. To the extent that the rules for these core components are of sound "balance", spells built in HERO would sport good balance too, vis a vis each other and vis a vis non-spell abilities/powers. I wonder if players of HERO magic would agree that this is so? And more importantly, would they also label the results *fun*? My limited experience with HERO has always tasted of something that's technically "right", yet somehow bland or... I'm not even sure what to call the problem, just a subtle lack of enticement. (Just me, of course; wildly different reactions are welcome.) I wonder if anyone's spotted a balanced, flexible, and fun magic system out there? Yours in idle musing, T. Bone tbone@io.com T. Bone's GURPS Diner http://www.io.com/~tbone/gurps/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 10:33:56 -0600 From: Brandon Cope Subject: Re: range issues Johannes Trimmel wrote: > > 1) Why do knifes have range C,1 for swing and C for thr? Perhaps the tip of a slashing knife causes more of a wound than the tip of a thrust knife? That is, poking at something at the limit of your reach isn't very effective, while a slash can still cause a long (if shallow) cut. - -- A generous and sadistic GM, "Oh stop pretending there's a plot. Brandon Cope Stop cheapening yourself further" MTS3K: Wild World of Bat Woman GURPS characters, vehicles and campaigns at: http://www.geocities.com/copeab ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 18:36:09 +0100 From: "Joachim Schipper" Subject: Re: Resisted Spells - ----- Original Message ----- From: "tbone" To: Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 5:04 PM Subject: Re: Resisted Spells > > On Tuesday, January 21, 2003, at 08:29 AM, Thomas Ackermann wrote: > > > The problem is, that i see GURPS Magic and Grimoire as *completely* > > unbalanced at best! > > That whole construction is such arbritrary, that i sometime cannot > > believe that itīs from the same people who made GURPS core rules, that > > sometimes even shine ... > > I won't argue with your many examples; I suppose many players find the > magic system feels fine overall, but many others don't. It is, after > all, built on the "arbitrary spell" method of pre-defined spell > effects, whose only "balance check" is the authors' beliefs that the > spells are balanced. More importantly, it is very hard to try to visualize a magic system that uses only spells *in the game world*. In most people's imaginations, magic is simply not like that. Just look at the many instants in which the GM uses special magic as a plot tool - but, somehow, players can never get access to that magic. Strange, no? Even when perfectly balanced, a spell-based system will not appeal to me. It may work, but it does not work in the way I'd like it to work. > I'm curious, though: have you seen anything that does achieve good > balance? Take D&D, for example -- it has "arbitrary" spells like GURPS, > in that each spell has specific, given effects; does D&D's set of > spells, and the rules for using them, create a "balance" that GURPS > misses? I myself don't have enough experience to be able to say. In D&D there are many worthless spells, and quite a few spells that are just too powerful. High-level wizards are extremely destructive, while low-level wizards are by far the weakest member of any group. Additionally, higher-level spells can kill you if you fail one roll, which means Resurrection-type spells are a necessity once you get above a certain level. I have very limited experience with GURPS:Magic, as I decided I'd rather think up something of my own after seeing the Basic Set's examples and Grimoire (yes, I own Grimoire but not Magic. My brother bought it, but didn't check beforehand if it was an independent book or an expansion on Magic). So I cannot make a comparison, but I can tell you that D&D magic is not very well-balanced. It also suffers from the strange idea of memorization: 'wizard, can you (teleport us to the neighbouring country/open this door/identify this item)?' 'Not now, but I'll (re)memorize the spell tomorrow'. That is even more strange a view of magic. Strange to most of us, at least. I've had quite a bit of fun with the D&D system, mind you; it works reasonably well. But it makes no sense, necessitates easy Resurrections, and players will use only the best spells. > The only system I know of -- and there may be many I don't know of -- > with non-arbitrary spells is HERO, where spells are "built" one at a > time using exactly the same components used to build every and any > ability. To the extent that the rules for these core components are of > sound "balance", spells built in HERO would sport good balance too, vis > a vis each other and vis a vis non-spell abilities/powers. > > I wonder if players of HERO magic would agree that this is so? And more > importantly, would they also label the results *fun*? My limited > experience with HERO has always tasted of something that's technically > "right", yet somehow bland or... I'm not even sure what to call the > problem, just a subtle lack of enticement. (Just me, of course; wildly > different reactions are welcome.) > > I wonder if anyone's spotted a balanced, flexible, and fun magic system > out there? I'd like to add that 'fun' implies 'non-spell-based' to me. Joachim - --- My outgoing mail is checked for viruses. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.443 / Virus Database: 248 - Release Date: 10-1-03 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 20:07:39 +0200 From: "Kaj Sotala" Subject: Re: Resisted Spells From: "tbone" > The only system I know of -- and there may be many I don't know of -- > with non-arbitrary spells is HERO, where spells are "built" one at a > time using exactly the same components used to build every and any > ability. To the extent that the rules for these core components are of > sound "balance", spells built in HERO would sport good balance too, vis > a vis each other and vis a vis non-spell abilities/powers. There's also Ars Magica. Ars has fifteen magical skills, "arts", separated into five techniques - creation, knowledge, control, transformation, and destruction (if I remember correctly) - and ten forms - air, water, earth, fire, body, mind, animal, plant, image, and magic. For each spell you cast, you combine a technique and a form, adding together your skill in them and trying to beat the difficulty of the spell (which varies depending on what you're trying to do, obviously - there's a list of guidelines for determining this). Starting a fire, for instance, would probably be a Creo (create) Ignem (fire) spell. Converting this to GURPS probably wouldn't be too tricky - in fact, it looks like somebody's already done it. I stumbled on a simple article about this, which seems to be down at the moment but accessible through the Google cache: http://216.239.57.100/search?q=cache:Gp9uBgTUsxUC:members.aol.com/BillSeurer/GURPS/GURPSMagica.html+ars+magica+creo&hl=fi&ie=UTF-8 "There comes a time when you look into the mirror and realize that what you see is all that you will ever be. Then you accept it, or you kill yourself. Or you stop looking into mirrors." - Londo Mollari, Babylon 5: Chrysalis ICQ 18051088/AIM Xuenay/MSN Xuenay@Hotmail.com | http://www.saunalahti.fi/~tspro1/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 10:41:59 -0800 From: Steffan Thomas Subject: Re: range issues I'm not really sure how the range system works in real life. After all, opponents don't neatly line up at 1 yard intervals. Also, all of my following opinions are based on my experience with 1 sword in 1 style. (katana, 30" from guard to tip, style=eishin ryu iaido) I'm not going to get into the types of katana, mainly because I don't know them. I'd appreciate a reference from any of the serious armorers on the list. Also, a 30" blade length is pretty long. Most of the historical blade lengths I've seen are shorter. (probably because people were shorter) Total sword length, including grip is around 40 - 44." damage at ranges: Anything from the midpoint of hex 1 to the midpoint of hex 2 seems to be pretty much in my range. To hit the front half of of hex 1, or the back half of hex 2, requires some movement of my body. 1 handed vs 2 handed: In my style, we only use the sword 1 handed for the first cut, when we draw from the scabbard. After that, it's all 2 handed work. That said, turning the body to align on any opponent isn't difficult, and doesn't take any extra time. (well, not on the 1-second scale, anyway.) Reach in distance is pretty similar, but the 1-handed grip does have some small advantage in range, especially for head shots, or rising cuts. I'd estimate it at roughly 1 foot, for my 6'0" frame. Making this sort of cut requires some footwork, akin to a short lunge. Not enough to move you into the next hex, but enough to close you to the forward edge of your own hex. I haven't studied fencing enough to know if it is as far as a "lunge" maneuver, but I wouldn't think so. When in this position, my back leg is near-straight, at 45deg to the floor, while my forward leg is vertical to the knee, and then about 30 deg from vertical from the knee to the hip. The torso is vertical, and the hips are (left to right) nearly perpendicular to the direction to the foe. (75 to 90 deg to foe, right hip leading) all comments are based on my recollections. I did mime out some moves in my office, but I didn't use a protractor or tape measure. This offer not valid in all states, and your mileage may vary. do not use under the influence of heavy machinery. - -steffan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 10:53:45 -0800 From: David Stroup Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: Might-Spell and ST and Fatigue] tbone wrote: >On Tuesday, January 21, 2003, at 06:24 PM, Thomas Ackermann wrote: > >... > >>There seems to >>be something like that for RPG as well. It is called DragonNet, when i >>recall correctly, but i did not look into it ... i will later compare >>it to GURPS! > >I had never heard of this. Very interesting; thanks for the pointer. > >>Open Systems Development Philosophy >>----------------------------------- >>Unix is a popular computer operating system for two primary reasons. One: >>it's free (usually), and Two it uses an open system architecture. Computer >>operating systems and RPG's actually have a lot in common... > >Which reminds me of a time, once, when I found myself in idle >thought, and began comparing RPG systems to computer operating >systems. You know, like those jokes about, "If UNIX were a car, it'd >be a.... If Windows were a car, it'd be a... ", but instead I was >thinking, "If GURPS were an operating system, it'd be like..." > >Fortunately, I caught myself and stopped -- "Gods, man, what are you >DOING!?", I cried. I was not merely adding geekiness atop geekiness, >but was actually *multiplying* geekiness by itself! I stood on the >brink of triggering the exponentially-building "Poindexter >Syndrome"... Sadly, I have already been down that road. GURPS is, of course, Mac OS, the 'have it your way, Think Different' system founded by a Steve J. Unfortunately, it's Mac system 7.6 or so, looong overdue for an update. D&D 3e is obviously Windows, the latest Me/NT/XXXL slicked-up version... but at its core it's still D&D. Hero is Unix; powerful as hell and you get everything you need to do *anything* with the basic distribution, but you need a specialized degree and years of practice to get it to work just right. Fudge is Linux; BESM is... Palm OS? BeOS? The analogy breaks down, thankfully. >Anyway, back on topic: > >>Clean ascii: >> >> >>HTML (and nicer): >> >> >>But it seems to be abandoned already :-( There are quite a few good, free RPGs available on the net. Fudge is probably the oldest and best supported -- and it's 'open source' as it were, you're invited to take it, modify it and use it in your own projects (commercial projects, even). I'm working on my own system, in fact; I want to combine the simplicity of GURPS basic task resolution and character creation with Hero's powers metasystem for building spells, superpowers and the like and BESM's simple, fluid, slightly cinematic combat. Fudge: http://www.fudgerpg.com > > >But anyway, should you attempt to rework fatigue rules, my main >suggestion would be simply to limit the ST loss effect (you're right >that GURPS can be too severe here). Be sure to get HT involved in >things (reducing Fatigue loss on a HT roll, for example, or >switching to Fatigue=HT). And be sure to apply other realistic >penalties that GURPS ignores (penalties to effective IQ and DX, >possibly to HT and Will... definitely penalties to Alertness... and >so on.) A few suggestions of my own on fatigue: the rules note that you should not refigure weapons damage based on ST loss due to fatigue; the reason given for this is simply that it would take too much computation and re-computation during combat (like that's ever stopped a GURPS rule before). I'd say don't refigure due to fatigue lost short-term in combat, *do* refigure based on long-term fatigue loss. I *believe* there's even a vague suggestion of a 'long-term fatigue' in the Basic set rules; something about how you can lose fatigue for not getting a full night's sleep... you don't regain that by simply 'resting' for a few minutes, you have to get a good night's sleep to 'reset.' I'd assess that long-term fatigue loss for lost sleep, long marches and the like, and refigure ST and damage based on it. For short-term fatigue due to combat... how about 1 for a full 10 seconds of combat, 2 for half a minute, 3 for a minute, 4 for two full minutes 'under fire' etc; takes effect only *after* a single skirmish/engagement is over (and the adrenaline stops flowing); roll HT to reduce by 1/2 (and advantages like Combat Reflexes -- ads which indicate combat 'hardening' - add to this roll). Perhaps add 1 'long term' fatigue lost per (5 min.? 10 min.?) ... that would mean that even accounting for adrenaline long engagements would wear people down. DS - -- ____________________________________________________________ David Stroup Clackamas Review/Oregon City News check out 'Yossarian' comic strips on-line at http://www.io.com/~dstroup ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 21:23:35 +0100 (MEZ) From: Johannes Trimmel Subject: Re: Resisted Spells On Thu, 23 Jan 2003, Joachim Schipper wrote: > It also suffers from the strange idea of memorization: 'wizard, can you > (teleport us to the neighbouring country/open this door/identify this > item)?' 'Not now, but I'll (re)memorize the spell tomorrow'. That is even > more strange a view of magic. Strange to most of us, at least. > There is a sound explaination that leads to the same effects as memmorizsation: Spells require quite some time to cast but once you did cast them you can store a certain amount depending on your ability. A bit like Gurps Delay/Link. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Better a solution that makes the problem worse then no solution at all. Johannes Trimmel ++++++++++++++++ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 21:41:57 +0100 (MEZ) From: Johannes Trimmel Subject: Re: range issues On Thu, 23 Jan 2003, Brandon Cope wrote: > Johannes Trimmel wrote: > > > > 1) Why do knifes have range C,1 for swing and C for thr? > > Perhaps the tip of a slashing knife causes more of a wound than the tip > of a thrust knife? That is, poking at something at the limit of your > reach isn't very effective, while a slash can still cause a long (if > shallow) cut. Good point but it should be even more true for swords ,better leverage and more mass -> more kinetic energy should make slashes more powerfull compared to cuts with the same weapons. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Better a solution that makes the problem worse then no solution at all. Johannes Trimmel ++++++++++++++++ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 21:50:11 +0100 From: "Joachim Schipper" Subject: Re: Good magic systems - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kaj Sotala" To: Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 7:07 PM Subject: Re: Resisted Spells > From: "tbone" > > The only system I know of -- and there may be many I don't know of -- > > with non-arbitrary spells is HERO, where spells are "built" one at a > > time using exactly the same components used to build every and any > > ability. To the extent that the rules for these core components are of > > sound "balance", spells built in HERO would sport good balance too, vis > > a vis each other and vis a vis non-spell abilities/powers. > > There's also Ars Magica. Ars has fifteen magical skills, "arts", separated > into five techniques - creation, knowledge, control, transformation, and > destruction (if I remember correctly) - and ten forms - air, water, earth, > fire, body, mind, animal, plant, image, and magic. For each spell you cast, > you combine a technique and a form, adding together your skill in them > and trying to beat the difficulty of the spell (which varies depending on > what you're trying to do, obviously - there's a list of guidelines for > determining this). Starting a fire, for instance, would probably be a Creo > (create) Ignem (fire) spell. > > Converting this to GURPS probably wouldn't be too tricky - in fact, > it looks like somebody's already done it. I stumbled on a simple article > about this, which seems to be down at the moment but accessible > through the Google cache: > > http://216.239.57.100/search?q=cache:Gp9uBgTUsxUC:members.aol.com/BillSeurer /GURPS/GURPSMagica.html+ars+magica+creo&hl=fi&ie=UTF-8 > I have something similar to this. I dropped the nouns, as they made little sense in playtest. It's a bit more elaborate; it includes lots of modifiers to skill, fatigue pricing rules, rules for sorcerors and wizards (in the D&D way, but (hopefully) making more sense), etc. It also includes magical languages, which give special effects, and rules on both power and control. I have to acknowledge some inspiration from T. Bone: the articles are 'magical languages' (www.io.com/~tbone/maglang.html) and 'magic skill' (www.io.com/~tbone/maglang.html), though I interpreted the latter quite differently from T. Bone. Two points: 1) anybody who's not bored to death by homebrew improvisational magic systems and wants to receive one should mail me at j o a c h i m @ w a n a d o o . n l. 2) anybody who has tried his hand at this and made up something useful: could you please send it to me? I'm always looking for 'inspiration'. Joachim - --- My outgoing mail is checked for viruses. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.443 / Virus Database: 248 - Release Date: 10-1-03 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 22:16:16 +0100 (MEZ) From: Johannes Trimmel Subject: Re: range issues On Thu, 23 Jan 2003, Steffan Thomas wrote: > > damage at ranges: > Anything from the midpoint of hex 1 to the midpoint of hex 2 seems to be > pretty much in my range. To hit the front half of of hex 1, or the back half > of hex 2, requires some movement of my body. > So basically there is one hex you can easily attack it just is not neatly on the hexgrid but between there. Just what you like when you make rules. > 1 handed vs 2 handed: > In my style, we only use the sword 1 handed for the first cut, when we draw > from the scabbard. After that, it's all 2 handed work. That said, turning > the body to align on any opponent isn't difficult, and doesn't take any extra > time. (well, not on the 1-second scale, anyway.) Reach in distance is pretty > similar, but the 1-handed grip does have some small advantage in range, > especially for head shots, or rising cuts. I'd estimate it at roughly 1 foot, > for my 6'0" frame. Making this sort of cut requires some footwork, akin to a > short lunge. Not enough to move you into the next hex, but enough to close > you to the forward edge of your own hex. I haven't studied fencing enough to > know if it is as far as a "lunge" maneuver, but I wouldn't think so. When in > this position, my back leg is near-straight, at 45deg to the floor, while my > forward leg is vertical to the knee, and then about 30 deg from vertical from > the knee to the hip. The torso is vertical, and the hips are (left to right) > nearly perpendicular to the direction to the foe. (75 to 90 deg to foe, right > hip leading) > 30 cm range advantage seems good enough that you propably would risk the 1 turn to ready disad from Bastardswords (as in basic) in some situations. Propably i give them better range then Bastardswords in 2H use to simulate that, if i don't find something better to simulate ranges. Your step sounds a lot like a short version of a fencing lunge. In fencing terminology it would definitly be a lunge but i don't think it would require the lunge maneuver to simulate in GURPS. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Better a solution that makes the problem worse then no solution at all. Johannes Trimmel ++++++++++++++++ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 00:26:58 -0000 From: "John Robertson" Subject: Re: range issues - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steffan Thomas" To: "GURPS Maillist" Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 6:41 PM Subject: Re: range issues > I'm not really sure how the range system works in real life. After all, > opponents don't neatly line up at 1 yard intervals. Also, all of my following > opinions are based on my experience with 1 sword in 1 style. (katana, 30" > from guard to tip, style=eishin ryu iaido) I'm not going to get into the > types of katana, mainly because I don't know them. I'd appreciate a reference > from any of the serious armorers on the list. Also, a 30" blade length is > pretty long. Most of the historical blade lengths I've seen are shorter. > (probably because people were shorter) Total sword length, including grip is > around 40 - 44." > > damage at ranges: > Anything from the midpoint of hex 1 to the midpoint of hex 2 seems to be > pretty much in my range. To hit the front half of of hex 1, or the back half > of hex 2, requires some movement of my body. > > 1 handed vs 2 handed: > In my style, we only use the sword 1 handed for the first cut, when we draw > from the scabbard. After that, it's all 2 handed work. That said, turning > the body to align on any opponent isn't difficult, and doesn't take any extra > time. (well, not on the 1-second scale, anyway.) Reach in distance is pretty > similar, but the 1-handed grip does have some small advantage in range, > especially for head shots, or rising cuts. I'd estimate it at roughly 1 foot, > for my 6'0" frame. Making this sort of cut requires some footwork, akin to a > short lunge. Not enough to move you into the next hex, but enough to close > you to the forward edge of your own hex. I haven't studied fencing enough to > know if it is as far as a "lunge" maneuver, but I wouldn't think so. When in > this position, my back leg is near-straight, at 45deg to the floor, while my > forward leg is vertical to the knee, and then about 30 deg from vertical from > the knee to the hip. The torso is vertical, and the hips are (left to right) > nearly perpendicular to the direction to the foe. (75 to 90 deg to foe, right > hip leading) My own iaito has a 32" blade and is 43" overall. It is very well balanced and I had it made especially for me. In retrospect it's about an inch too long for comfort but it still works fine. John Robertson ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 16:33:10 -0800 From: Steffan Thomas Subject: Re: range issues Johannes Trimmel wrote: > On Thu, 23 Jan 2003, Steffan Thomas wrote: > > damage at ranges: > > Anything from the midpoint of hex 1 to the midpoint of hex 2 seems to be > > pretty much in my range. To hit the front half of of hex 1, or the back half > > of hex 2, requires some movement of my body. > > So basically there is one hex you can easily attack it just is not neatly > on the hexgrid but between there. Just what you like when you make rules. > Yes, it's very convenient that way. ; ) The body movement for hitting the first 1/2 hex is pretty much nil, while the 2nd 1/2 of hex 2 includes a small lunge type movement. I only mentioned the first hex problem in case your swordsman has their feet epoxied to the floor. The first half hex is also pretty much impaled on my blade if I'm in the standard defensive guard position. In order to safely occupy that area, you've probably pinned my sword with a shield, gone corps-a-corps, or something similar. In which case, the reach rules are probably not the most important thing to worry about. > 30 cm range advantage seems good enough that you propably would risk the 1 > turn to ready disad from Bastardswords (as in basic) in some situations. > Propably i give them better range then Bastardswords in 2H use to simulate > that, if i don't find something better to simulate ranges. > > Your step sounds a lot like a short version of a fencing lunge. In fencing > terminology it would definitly be a lunge but i don't think it would > require the lunge maneuver to simulate in GURPS. I have seen a manuever that included a step, lunge & thrust, and it really ate up the distance. I don't know that maneuver yet, so I can't measure how much range that covers, but I'd guess it's in the 3 to 4 hex zone. When demonstrated, it is immediately after an attack in the other direction, so it really looks impressive Isn't there something in GURPS: Swashbucklers that covers length of weapon? If not, I'd suggest something like a -1 to skill for some quantum of range that a weapon is shorter than the opponent's. What to use as the quantum, I have no idea. 1 foot? 6 inches? 3.1416 cm? I'd imagine that you could argue +1 to the longer blade just as easily. - -s ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 16:43:48 -0800 From: Steffan Thomas Subject: Re: range issues One thing that discussions like this bring home to me is that style familiarity can be a big advantage. When I think about how I would hit a certain target, the method really depends on what I had just done. So, an upwards-rising draw & cut has a different set of follow-ups than the one-handed right-side head draw & cut. I also have noticed that more advanced students have more options from a given position. But overall, a student of a given style will do certain things more often than someone who practices a different style. This is especially true when you start crossing eras & continents. I wouldn't have a clue as to how to defend against a fencer, or a sword & shield guy, despite having watched some combat in each style, and a few lessons in fencing. Could someone refresh my memory on how style familiarity works? I would guess that it's a perception+combat roll against an opponents combat skill. I'm not sure what modifiers would be appropriate, or what benefits it would give. The most likely benefit is a bonus to defense, maybe 1 per 5 points of advantage in the contested skill roll. Of course, this is probably in the too-many-rules zone. - -s ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 22:14:29 -0500 From: Emily Smirle Subject: Re: Resisted Spells Johannes Trimmel wrote: > On Thu, 23 Jan 2003, Joachim Schipper wrote: >>It also suffers from the strange idea of memorization: 'wizard, can you >>(teleport us to the neighbouring country/open this door/identify this >>item)?' 'Not now, but I'll (re)memorize the spell tomorrow'. That is even >>more strange a view of magic. Strange to most of us, at least. > > There is a sound explaination that leads to the same effects as > memmorizsation: > > Spells require quite some time to cast but once you did cast them you can > store a certain amount depending on your ability. A bit like Gurps > Delay/Link. This is the official line for 3rd edition: the preparation done every morning by a spell caster is actually the majority of the spell casting effort. You then "hang" the spell untill you need it, and complete the incantation and rituals to seal the effect and activate the magic. You can hang only so many spells at once before loosing concentration, thus the "spell slots". However, earlier versions were based on fantasy fiction by a particular author who's name escapes me, where mages actually "rememorized" spells every morning, and forgot them after they cast them. 3rd edition has tossed this explanation out because it's just not represented in most fantasy fiction, but they kept the spell slots as a useful control mechanism. - -- Let the sun never blind your eyes Let me sleep so my teeth won't grind -- "Grind", Hear a sound from a voice inside Alice in Chains ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jan 2003 07:59:35 -0300 From: Daniel Arbelo Subject: Re: Resisted Spells > This is the official line for 3rd edition: the preparation done every > morning by a spell caster is actually the majority of the spell casting > effort. You then "hang" the spell untill you need it, and complete the > incantation and rituals to seal the effect and activate the magic. You > can hang only so many spells at once before loosing concentration, thus > the "spell slots". So, they are Logrus sorcerers :) - -=(Daniel)=- ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jan 2003 13:23:10 -0000 From: "Volker Bach" Subject: Re: Good magic systems On Thu, 23 Jan 2003 21:50:11 +0100, "Joachim Schipper" wrote : > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kaj Sotala" > To: > Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 7:07 PM > Subject: Re: Resisted Spells > > > > Converting this to GURPS probably wouldn't be too tricky - in fact, > > it looks like somebody's already done it. I stumbled on a simple article > > about this, which seems to be down at the moment but accessible > > through the Google cache: > > > > > http://216.239.57.100/search?q=cache:Gp9uBgTUsxUC:members.aol.com/BillSeurer > /GURPS/GURPSMagica.html+ars+magica+creo&hl=fi&ie=UTF-8 > > > > I have something similar to this. I dropped the nouns, as they made little > sense in playtest. Interesting. How do you keep the powers from becoming too generic? Having 'Create' would strike me as overpowering, not to mention a bit hard to define when you do not have any limutations on what you can create. > It's a bit more elaborate; it includes lots of modifiers to skill, fatigue > pricing rules, rules for sorcerors and wizards (in the D&D way, but > (hopefully) making more sense), etc. It also includes magical languages, > which give special effects, and rules on both power and control. You know, I think I would like to go through that. Magic systems are kinda my hobby. > Two points: > 1) anybody who's not bored to death by homebrew improvisational > magic systems and wants to receive one should mail me at j o a c h i m @ w a n a d o o . n l. Do send it. If you have it .txt, that is - I can't work with other attachments ATM. > 2) anybody who has tried his hand at this and made up something > useful: could you please send it to me? I'm always looking for > 'inspiration'. I have a few sitting around. Specifically: Rune Magic variant based on written spells powered at three levels by Vigour (FT), Blood (HT) and Soul (Permanent Attribute Loss). It includes a lot of stuff about sacrificing and drawing power, and the fact that the mage does not have to give that power himself makes for fun ambivalent roleplay. This one's finished A Tarot Magic system in which the Suits represent elements and the Arcana cards special powers. Not quite finished, but usable as is if you leave out a few cards I couldn't settle on effects for yet. A variant of Voodoo, 'Pattern Tugging', a trance-magic that works with the ties of causality, happenstance and fate. Very moveable in its power level and implications. Democritean Magic, a variant Psi system in line with the beliefs of the Atomist school of pre-Aristotelian philosophers. The base mnwechanic is that of Psi, but the boundaries, skills, effects and control are different. A nice one to use with Greece, as it is the only magic system I have whose explanation actually satisfies me as to internal cogency. Except for the beans. Opinions are always valuzed Volker ------------------------------ End of GURPSnet-Digest V4 #3769 ******************************* To subscribe to GURPSnet-Digest, send the command: subscribe GURPSnet-Digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@io.com". 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