GURPSnet-Digest Thursday, February 13 2003 Volume 04 : Number 3773 In this issue: Psi skill: Aspect Re: Hibernation (Dis-)Advantage? Capabilities of Reflex Armor Re: Hibernation (Dis-)Advantage? Not So Supers Re: Capabilities of Reflex Armor Re: Capabilities of Reflex Armor Re: Not So Supers Re: Not So Supers RE: Not So Supers Re: Not So Supers [rant] Re: Not So Supers [rant free] Some thoughs on ST 800 RE: Some thoughs on ST 800 RE: Some thoughs on ST 800 thoughts about supers Re: thoughts about supers Die probabilities RE: Some thoughs on ST 800 Re: thoughts about supers Re: Not So Supers [rant] Re: Not So Supers [rant free] See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the GURPSnet-L or GURPSnet-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 02:56:39 -0800 (PST) From: Erik Holmes Subject: Psi skill: Aspect Quick question on the Aspect skill for Telepathy. Can it be resisted in any way? From the way I read it there is no resistance roll for the Charisma bonus, the power just works with a skill roll. Does a mind shield help protect against it? __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 14:26:02 +0100 (MEZ) From: Johannes Trimmel Subject: Re: Hibernation (Dis-)Advantage? On 11 Feb 2003, Volker Bach wrote: > I am having a bit of a problem here. My character creation skills got a bit > rusty and I am trying to GURPSify the following situation: > > character has a Dependency. As long as it is regularly fulfilled, she's > normal. If it is not fulfilled she falls into a torpor (FT loss) and > eventually turns into the stone statue she really is. In hibernation, she > gets DR 10 and an obscene amount of huit points, but is completely immobile > and can not interact with anyone (in fact she isn't even aware of her > surroundings and once awoke in a museum collection) > > What is that in GURPS terms? > Start from addiction or dependency(i don't know the dependency rules on top of my head) If, should the pc miss to fulfill the dependency, it is likely that she will be revived by someone else (like a ally dependent or other pc who knows or easily guesses what the dependency is and it can easily be implemented on a statue) just take that value. Effects are slightly more severe then with ordinary addictions but you also could in a few situations use it to your advantage. If what she has to do is either difficult to do by an other person or on a statue increase the value to not more then double value of the addiciton. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Better a solution that makes the problem worse then no solution at all. Johannes Trimmel ++++++++++++++++ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 15:16:17 -0600 From: "Troy Guffey" Subject: Capabilities of Reflex Armor According to Ultra-Tech, reflex armor has sensors that detect incoming attacks, then harden the suit's material to rigidity, giving extra DR and rigidity. Situation: A guy wearing reflex armor ends up prone under some kind of really heavy crate (like at least 1/2 ton) that WAS suspended. It breaks loose and drops onto his legs. Would the 'flex go rigid? Would it do any good? Troy Guffey ICQ pager: http://wwp.icq.com/1978644 AIM: Pax214 Y!: troyguffey PGP key ID: 0xDCCDF22D ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 13:22:52 -0800 From: Clayten Subject: Re: Hibernation (Dis-)Advantage? I don't think it's really a slow-metabolism issue, for the most part the character seems normal. I'd do it as an addiction, or a dependency. Addiction has certain implications that don't fit, so I'd use dependency. Now, she doesn't really have "Body of Stone", at least not in any useful sense, she's just much less vulnerable than someone who falls over and sleeps, without DR. She also is likely unaging in this form. I'd handle the Body of Stone issue by making the results of the dependency less severe. It's not death after all. It's both more and less severe than hibernation. With hibernation you don't get DR10/Unaging, but you also get the ability to wake up with a will roll, if circumstances require it. There are rules for damaging objects with much DR, even with tools that don't inflict enough per hit to penetrate using a strict interpretation. Because of this, she's still vulnerable when in stone form, just not casually vulnerable. Someone could break her head off with a pick, but she doesn't suffer elemental damage, or from rough handling. It's helpful, but the really dangerous things (enemies) are likely to put extra effort into killing her, so the DR10 is almost a special effect. What is handy, is the ability to sleep for long periods of time. Depending on how much control she has over this, and how much control her friends have; maybe she can't wake up on her own, but they can do something which causes her to. This is essentially the power to go into stasis. She's be great on a slow space voyage. You could thaw her out to perform a job, yet she wouldn't consume resources or grow old while not needed. Depending on the campaign this is a +1 quirk-level advantage, or +15 for lower life-support and tolerance to radiation and high gravity (limitation: only while hibernating). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 15:31:49 -0600 From: Matthew S Pulido Subject: Not So Supers I have been a fan of GURPS for sometime and have recently really started getting into it. I think it's a great system and believe it truly is universal. However, I am finding it hard to create high powered Supers or even decent reproductions of low powered Marvel/DC Supers without the point costs being extremely high. For Example: Spider-Man. Spider-Man has a max lift of around 10 tons depending on what version you are looking at and where he is in his career. Figuring that off the extra effort column in Compendium I, Spider-Man would have an ST of 92 or 93. That's just for someone at Spider-Man's level. And that's figuring that his 10 ton lift isn't his Max Lift but is his Extra Effort. Also, Spider-Man is far more agile than a normal human. What do we use as a gauge for DXs over 20? This doesn't even take into account beings like Superman or The Hulk, who seem well beyond GURPS limits. Superman can lift (according to several sources) 800000 Tons. Figuring that from the extra effort column you would need a ST of about 803. 803! Granted, that's probably the strongest hero you'd ever have to figure for but that would be really expensive. Any thoughts. Talison - -- "I'm here to fight for truth, justice, and the American way." Superman ------------------------------ Date: 12 Feb 2003 22:45:09 -0000 From: "Volker Bach" Subject: Re: Capabilities of Reflex Armor On Wed, 12 Feb 2003 15:16:17 -0600, "Troy Guffey" wrote : > According to Ultra-Tech, reflex armor has sensors that detect incoming > attacks, then harden the suit's material to rigidity, giving extra DR and > rigidity. > > Situation: A guy wearing reflex armor ends up prone under some kind of > really heavy crate (like at least 1/2 ton) that WAS suspended. It breaks > loose and drops onto his legs. > > Would the 'flex go rigid? Would it do any good? As to 1 - that should depend on the setting. 'Bog standard' reflex probably won't be able to distinguish between such an attack and a fast-moving vehicle in the environment and either go into 'impact mode', hardening all over, or not react at all, classifying it as 'background noise'. Really good reflex should have a setting for such an eventuality. As to 2 - if it hardens all around the legs (either because it has an inbuilt 'impact mode' or because the programmer thought of exactly this situation and devised a specific reaction, yes it should. If it simply has a one-stop reaction 'harden a few square inches and close your eyes for three seconds', that shouldn't. Of course half a ton will be in a damage class that makes 'will it help' a bit of an academic question. How much DR does reflex give? Likely not enough to save this guy's legs, unless you have *really* advanced microsurgical restoration techniques. Volker ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 15:56:14 -0600 From: "Clinton N. Fell" Subject: Re: Capabilities of Reflex Armor I would say that depends how far the crate had to fall. The armor must first realize that the crate is moving not the user (not hard since the ground is staying in place) then realize the movement is dangerous (much more subjective) and not some irrelevant stimulus like an elevator door. If the crate falls more than a foot or so I would say the armor would probably react as if it were an attack. It is capable of determining the threat of a supersonic object the size of a coin in less time than it takes the projectile to travel 5 feet so the armor could wait until the last possible instant to react allow full movement until that instant. And the armor is smart enough to stay rigid under the clenched jaws of an animal so I would say that it would help keep the object from crushing the recipients legs. However the legs would be trapped and if the feet are not also protected they would very likely be crushed as the crate settled onto them. I'm not real sure how much damage a 1/2 ton crate does so I do not know if it would penetrate the DR of the armor. But any damage that you decide it does should get applied to both feet and both legs (possibly crippling all four body parts). If you really want to be mean you could apply this ruling then mention that the armor was never designed to stay rigid for protracted periods of time and let is slowly reduce its DR as it loses power and the crate slowly crushes the trapped victim. I would use this on a PC if help were nearby to add stress to the situation and to remind PC's that it sometimes pays to buy premium grade equipment (only really necessary if your PC's insist on shopping at Crazy Igor's Discount Arms and Armour). Others results may vary. Clint Fell "Troy Guffey" Sent by: owner-gurpsnet-l@lists.io.com 02/12/03 03:16 PM Please respond to "Troy Guffey" To: "List, GURPSnet" cc: Subject: Capabilities of Reflex Armor Caterpillar: Confidential Green Retain Until: 03/14/2003 Retention Category: G90 - Information and Reports According to Ultra-Tech, reflex armor has sensors that detect incoming attacks, then harden the suit's material to rigidity, giving extra DR and rigidity. Situation: A guy wearing reflex armor ends up prone under some kind of really heavy crate (like at least 1/2 ton) that WAS suspended. It breaks loose and drops onto his legs. Would the 'flex go rigid? Would it do any good? Troy Guffey ICQ pager: http://wwp.icq.com/1978644 AIM: Pax214 Y!: troyguffey PGP key ID: 0xDCCDF22D ------------------------------ Date: 12 Feb 2003 22:53:31 -0000 From: "Volker Bach" Subject: Re: Not So Supers On Wed, 12 Feb 2003 15:31:49 -0600, Matthew S Pulido wrote : > However, I am finding it hard to create high powered Supers or even decent > reproductions of low powered Marvel/DC Supers without the point costs being > extremely high. I really wouldn't worry about it. Point Cost isn't too much of an issue in Supers Games, even if you try to maintain the illusion that such powers can be compared and valued against each other meaningfully. Spiderman or Superman are more than likely to have massively high totals, as will most other Supers. That's why they're Supers. > For Example: Spider-Man. Spider-Man has a max lift of around 10 tons > depending on what version you are looking at and where he is in his career. > Figuring that off the extra effort column in Compendium I, Spider-Man would > have an ST of 92 or 93. That's just for someone at Spider-Man's level. And > that's figuring that his 10 ton lift isn't his Max Lift but is his Extra > Effort. So? If this is really a concern (and I don't think Spidey punches at ST 93) you could use QuadST to figure lift. Nonetheless, Spiderman is a very powerful character, esypecially in a game like GURPS that attaches very high point values to combat-effective Advantages. Not entirely unjustified, as you will see when GURPS Spiderman meets GURPS Bog-standard criminal. > Also, Spider-Man is far more agile than a normal human. What do we use as a > gauge for DXs over 20? Do you need to go that high? Due to the functions of the 3d6 system, anything much above 20 quickly becomes overkill. > This doesn't even take into account beings like Superman or The Hulk, who > seem well beyond GURPS limits. > > Superman can lift (according to several sources) 800000 Tons. Figuring that > from the extra effort column you would need a ST of about 803. 803! Granted, > that's probably the strongest hero you'd ever have to figure for but that > would be really expensive. "How many points do you give Superman?" "As many as he wants!" Really, I don't see this as an issue. You won't ever have to play-balance Superman. Just build him and figure out the points afterwards. The values in Supers are all broken anywho... Volker ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 16:10:36 -0600 From: "Geoffrey Fagan" Subject: Re: Not So Supers >Also, Spider-Man is far more agile than a normal human. What do we use as a >gauge for DXs over 20? Think about taking DX 20 with a bunch of agility-related advantages, like Catfall, Enhanced Dodge, and Perfect Balance. I don't see a problem. Start with 500 point characters, but hand out *large* point awards for character development at the end of each session...maybe impose a limit on how much can go to skills, and require the rest to go to powers and the like. You're point values will be high, but balance between the PCs will be fine. Should an ordinary janitor have much of a chance against Superman? What about a trained soldier or cop? What about a decorated member of the special forces? What about a special forces soldier who's also an Olympic weightlifter and 10th degree black belt, old enough to be experienced and young enough to be in peak condition? Okay, the last guy I described is a super-normal over 500 points. And without being sneaky and using Kryptonite, or threatening a lot of weak, innocent civilians, he won't be a blip on superman's threat radar. This doesn't mean the system's broken - it means it works. If you want superman or spiderman-level characters, hand out the points accordingly. You might also think about scaling the cost of certain advantages. Super ST is cheap, bu if you want 10-ton lifters to be common, make it even cheaper. However, a spiderman knock-off who can lift 2 tons, and a superman knock-off who can lift 10 tons, will still give you the same dramatic feel - both of them are so far beyond normal that the only thing that can challenge them with strength is construction equipment or another super. GEF _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 22:12:22 -0000 From: "McCarty-Eigenmann" Subject: RE: Not So Supers > Superman can lift (according to several sources) 800000 Tons. Figuring > that > from the extra effort column you would need a ST of about 803. 803! > Granted, > that's probably the strongest hero you'd ever have to figure for but that > would be really expensive. > > Any thoughts. > > Talison well, beside being one of the sillier heros - he's too powerful to ever be really threatened. Try SUPER STATS! Someone suggested - years back - superstats - superstrength as an advantage. You paid 50pts per level iirc, and got the ability to lift ST*10 tons for level one, ST*100 tons for level two, etc. Just rebadge it. Anyway - the big boyscout should be mega points. If you think he's tough to generate I suggest you look at Dr Manhattan or even better - any of the Authority, especially the Doctor. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 17:15:08 -0500 From: Emily Smirle Subject: Re: Not So Supers [rant] Matthew S Pulido wrote: > Superman can lift (according to several sources) 800000 Tons. > Figuring that from the extra effort column you would need a ST of > about 803. 803! Granted, that's probably the strongest hero you'd ever > have to figure for but that would be really expensive. Ok, this is a long standing peeve of mine, so Matthew please don't take this personally. You just triggered something that's been brewing for a long time.... ;) Why is it that people equate expensive with impossible? Why is it that people complain that having the strength to pick up a battleship without slipping a disk is expensive? And why is it that people seem to continually expect to build heroes like Superman on 500 or 1000 points? Superman is a god-level being; in some versions, he's actually portrayed as a form of demi-deity, or otherwise mythic hero. He's not just head and shoulders above humanity, he's above the vast population of regular heroes, too. Entities like Superman and Galactus exist at a scale outside that of the normal hero or villan. Why is it that no-one complains that building Galactus in GURPS is so expensive you need a spreadsheet to keep track of it, yet, people routinely complain that Superman is pricy? GURPS has potential heroes costing 100 points, and realistic "cream of the crop" incredible samples of the human race at 200. Even Black Ops, which spun wildly off into the most extreme ranges of action movie competance has James Bond Like über-mortals *starting* at 800 points. Consider how this applies to super-humans. The X-Men, often considered a kind of "standard" in the superhero power scale, average somewhere in the 1000 point range, with members dropping down into 500 and soaring up past 1500, depending on what kind of story ark they've gotten stuck in. Superman relates to characters like Gambit and Wolverine the way a Black Op relates to a real-world special forces soldier. From this, one would expect that superman would easily cost 4000 points (less for the original Superman, more for some of his sillier or more extreme versions -- rebuilding-the-great-wall-of-china-vision has to be pricy). Using a conservative estimate of STR 800, superman has to spend 560 points on strength. Frankly, even a 1000-point XMen level character can afford that, with room left over for some interesting side traits and an angsty background. However, lets assume Supes has something a little more generous, like STR 1600. That mighty score, doubling his lifting capacity, costs 960 points, or about one quarter of 4000-point Superman's total. 3000 points is definitely enough to deal with nigh-invulnerability, super breath, x ray vision, eye lasers, and flight in the mach 2-4 range (faster than a speeding bullet), along with all of Clark's contacts and allies gained from being a reporter, and all of supermans contacts and allies gained from being a world-saving hero. Considering that Superman also has a fair sized army of supervillains who'd like to see him drawn and quartered, a scattering of dependants, some crippling weaknessess that can completely neutralize his superpowers, and some decent moral standards, You could probably afford to build him on a more conservative 3000 or even 2000 points if you scrimp and save enough. To sum up this really long post: OF COURSE the ability to lift up an aircraft carrier is expensive! You can use that strength to leap mighty leaps, tear down buildings, and render your foes like unto a fine pink mist! Gah! - -- "Is he an evil outsider?" "Well, he was one of the loners in evil kindergarten..." - -- "Is he an evil outsider?" "Well, he was one of the loners in evil kindergarten..." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 19:47:24 -0500 From: Emily Smirle Subject: Re: Not So Supers [rant free] so now that I've gotten my oppinion piece out of my system... If you're trying to build a super-strong character like Spiderman (or even more so - Superman), and you're boggling at the points it takes, there's a few things you have to consider: ST in GURPS isn't just lifting, although lifting is an easily measured real-world unit. GURPS treats ST as a whole-body stat. By default if you have ST 800 in your arms and back, you have it in your legs. If your arm muscles can expand and contract fast enough to hurl a ST800 punch, your leg muscles can do the same to propell *you* through a ST800 jump. This is a great side effect for characters like Spiderman (who performs prodigious leaps without even noticing) or Superman (leap tall buildings in a single bound!), but if you have someone a little more grounded, you have a problem. So what to do if you don't want Superguy to be Superbouncy? You have two choices: 1) Don't buy your ST that high (no fun) 2) use the Natural ST limitation from Compendium 1 for the cost of all strength over something reasonable, like 15 or 20. - -- "Is he an evil outsider?" "Well, he was one of the loners in evil kindergarten..." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 19:48:20 -0500 From: Emily Smirle Subject: Some thoughs on ST 800 Some notes about the performance of a ST800 super: He can carry 24000 pounds (12 tons) and still waddle around. He can even pull a 240 ton vehicle on wheels or in water without risking slipped discs, strained muscles, or hernias. He can hold up 9360 tons for over 13 minutes, if he pushes himself, or pull a 187,200 ton vehicle for a similar length of time (for those that say GURPS weightlifting is linear, take an oogle at extra effort. When you have a ST of 800, you can get a 7800% bonus to your lifting weight and still be rolling against a 20 or less. The higher your ST, the more feedback you can get from extra effort.) Strength 800 also makes you bouncy. He can make a standing high jump of 2390 inches (almost 200 feet); enough to reach the top of a 20 storey building (although he may have to grab onto the roof edge). He can make a standing long jump of 797 feet, twice the length of an american football field. If he takes a 797 foot lead-in run, he can leap twice that, for a total of 1594 feet - almost a third of a mile. He also swims well, although not supernaturally well with a default skill of 15 (swimming skill defaults to ST-5, but defaulting caps out at 20). He is threatening, with a default indimidate skill of 15. He is a good leader, with a default Leadership skill of 15. And then there's combat. He does 81d-2 with a simple punch, which is enough that he doesn't just bruse flesh, rupture organs, and break bones when he punches people... he actually blows holes in them the size of his fist. He can throw a solid car (4 tons) for 81d-81 damage. He can throw it 80 yards, almost the length of a football field. Give him a 60 pound trebuchet boulder, and he'll throw it for 81d damage at someone 2400 feet away (although accuracy at that range isn't so good, it *will* go the distance). He can go without any food for 265 days before taking any damage from starvation. He can go without sleep for 160 days before fainting. He can march 24 hours a day for 25 days without stopping for food or sleep if he has a water supply. - -- "Is he an evil outsider?" "Well, he was one of the loners in evil kindergarten..." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 19:12:54 -0600 From: "Jeremy Balsley" Subject: RE: Some thoughs on ST 800 > From: owner-gurpsnet-l@lists.io.com [mailto:owner-gurpsnet-l@lists.io.com] > On Behalf Of Emily Smirle > Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 6:48 PM > To: GURPS MAILING LIST > Subject: Some thoughs on ST 800 > > Some notes about the performance of a ST800 super: > He can go without any food for 265 days before taking any damage from > starvation. > > He can go without sleep for 160 days before fainting. > > He can march 24 hours a day for 25 days without stopping for food or > sleep if he has a water supply. Unless, of course, you base fatigue off HT and hitpoints off ST like we do. This brings up an interesting question for those of us who only have Compendium I and not Supers. If bought at full cost, your character has HP equal to his ST, correct? Then, if that's the case, each HP for this character is included in a package deal with a net cost of 1/2 point for everything, extra damage, extra weight capacity, and all. So...there is really no point in buying extra hitpoints at 5 a pop... This holds out even if Fatigue = ST, meaning that you have no reason to buy extra fatigue (or mana!) This ST800 guy, given at least 15 points into Magery, would make one hell of a mana battery at least, and possibly one hell of a mage. Methinks the enhanced ST rules weren't as thought out as well as they could have been. :( ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 19:13:23 -0600 From: "Jeremy Balsley" Subject: RE: Some thoughs on ST 800 > From: owner-gurpsnet-l@lists.io.com [mailto:owner-gurpsnet-l@lists.io.com] > On Behalf Of Emily Smirle > Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 6:48 PM > To: GURPS MAILING LIST > Subject: Some thoughs on ST 800 > > Some notes about the performance of a ST800 super: > He can go without any food for 265 days before taking any damage from > starvation. > > He can go without sleep for 160 days before fainting. > > He can march 24 hours a day for 25 days without stopping for food or > sleep if he has a water supply. Unless, of course, you base fatigue off HT and hitpoints off ST like we do. This brings up an interesting question for those of us who only have Compendium I and not Supers. If bought at full cost, your character has HP equal to his ST, correct? Then, if that's the case, each HP for this character is included in a package deal with a net cost of 1/2 point for everything, extra damage, extra weight capacity, and all. So...there is really no point in buying extra hitpoints at 5 a pop... This holds out even if Fatigue = ST, meaning that you have no reason to buy extra fatigue (or mana!) This ST800 guy, given at least 15 points into Magery, would make one hell of a mana battery at least, and possibly one hell of a mage. Methinks the enhanced ST rules weren't as thought out as well as they could have been. :( ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 23:42:25 -0500 (EST) From: Eduardo Alvarez Subject: thoughts about supers Before I begin with this, I need to make something clear: I haven't had the chance to read GURPS Supers, and most of my thoughts about the subject come from other people's comments, and what's on compendium I. So of course, if something is completely off the wall, I apologize. I am working with limited information, even though I think thawhat I'm a bout to say is rather important. When I first began playing GURPS, I started working on a campagin based on the anime Kyuuketsuki Miyu, in which each player was a Shinma (to those unfamiliar with the show, a shinma is a God/Demon). At first I was going to give the players a huge amount of points (around the 1000 point range, or similar), since after all, they were deities. However, I soon considered it a mess to keep track of. Then it occured to me that the huge ammount of points was unnecesary. After all, they are only necesary if they were actively going to interact with normal humans. But normal humans are completely on a different scale! It would be similar to pitting houseants against a normal human. Therefore what I decided was to give everyone 300 points, but remove the advantage/disadvantage limit. Therefore, a Shinma might have an ST of 10 or but on a "Godly scale". In other words, the context of the scale was only among other gods. Mere mortals had no chance to survive them (except for rituals and spells, in theory, but that wasn't part of the game. It strikes me that with a superhero games, the situation is similar. Superman is never particularly worried about a common thief doing much damage to him (unless, of course, the thief happens to be carrying kryptonite with him). The only people that can seriously bother him are other supers. Wouldn't it be easier then, to think of the supers scales in different context, rather than maintaining a single scale, which is considered to have trouble when one goes into super strength values? Eduardo Alvarez http://www.great-atuin.net "Stercus, stercus, stercus, moriturus sum" -- Rincewind The Wizzard, "Interesting Times" - -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.12 GCS/S d-(+) s:+: a- C(++)>$ UB+>+++ P>+ L-@ E(-) W++>$ N++ o? K- w(---) O? M+ V? PS(+) PE(-) Y PGP- t--@ 5-- X+@ R+>+++$ tv+ b++>+++ DI(+) D--- G++ e>++ h r-- y+ - ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 21:38:49 -0800 From: Clayten Subject: Re: thoughts about supers > Wouldn't it be easier then, to think of the supers scales > in different context, rather than maintaining a single scale, which is > considered to have trouble when one goes into super strength values? > The only time it's important to have an accurate total for superman is when he's in a game with non-supers characters. Also, but unrelated to your point... And I think people overestimate the use of super-strength. Just rule that punching damage tops out at 20d for beings of human stature, give Superman a huge DR-divisor (he has a lot of force behind the punch, but it's only moving so fast, a soft and light target like a human will be flung before being pulped.) Give him an advantage called "Can lift a bagillion tons - 200 points" to handle his actual lift. The fact of it is that rational and consistent rules just can't model irrational and inconsistent abilities, and there's no way to balance them with other similar beings. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 21:52:09 -0800 From: Clayten Subject: Die probabilities I've been playing around with the curves from various number of dice and I found a few combinations that I like. Rolling d4+d6+d8 gives a curve similar to 3d6, but with a shallower curve, Rolling 2d4+d10 is shallower yet. Using either of these for your rolls means that you don't see the huge success-rate jump quite so quickly past 10, and scores past 15 aren't as pointless. Criticals are also slightly (.3%) more likely. I'd be curious to use d4+d6+d10 for D20 (AD&D 3rd Ed) gaming. With a rework to keep stats more in this range, it might be interesting. No more critical failures every 20th roll. If anyone is interested in the program I wrote to do this, it's in perl and should run on just about anything. (I've only tested Linux.) It prints neat little graphs, displays percentages and totals, etc. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 01:22:28 -0600 From: MasonK Subject: RE: Some thoughs on ST 800 From: Emily Smirle > Some notes about the performance of a ST800 super: Hey, this is fun. Here's some more, assuming that your GM is kind enough to let you use GURPS Magic in your Supers campaign. Assume a 1000 point campaign, 100 Disads, 5 Quirks, for a total pool of 1105 points. Strength 800 costs 560 points. This is an incredible advantage in and of itself, allowing a person to do 81d6 thrust, 83d6 swing damage. Before using weapons. This isn't even taking into account how much stuff you can carry, which we'll get to in a moment. (Short form--you'll want to carry lots of stuff). An IQ of 20 is 175 points. Magery 3 costs 35 points. Eidetic memory 2 costs 60. This puts your basic spell skill level at 23 (IQ+Magery+EM-2), which is two over the desired 21. This means you can have up to three spells going without a need for a ritual and at half the normal casting speed. Total cost at this point is 830. Go ahead and raise your DX and HT to 13 each, for a cost-effective 60 points. Now you're at 890. Take a moment to consider other advantages you'll want. Remember that Filthy Rich is only 50 points, and you'll effectively have that, so the GM will eventually get disgusted and charge you for it, so go ahead and spend the points now, get it out of the way. Now you're at 940. Consider skills. Remember that you have an IQ of 20, so you don't have to buy a lot of IQ-defaulted things. Just buy things that don't have an IQ default, like all your DX based stuff. You want Throwing, of course, not only for thrown spells, but so you can throw that Buick and have a chance of hitting your target. Now we get to spells. You want pretty much everything in the Enchant college, so pick your basic spells for each of the fifteen other colleges you're going to pick from (Wish, of course, requiring 15 colleges). Remember also that you're going to want Recover Strength (which, at a base 23, means you recover a point of fatigue every two minutes of rest, allowing you to fully recharge yourself in under 27 hours). Once you've done all this, you're ready to set up shop. With your immense fatigue pool, you're able to do most enchanted items listed in the book by yourself, using the quick and dirty enchantment rules. That's one hour for every hundred points put into the enchantment, rounded up. This allows you to, say, knock out a Fireball wand (800 energy) every two days. Oh, you'll want a few Powerstones around so you don't go to 0 fatigue every time you make a fireball wand, but you can make those trivially (20 points per enchantment means you can make your own 10 point Powerstone in a day's work). So, make a ton of objects. You can carry up to 12 tons of objects and still move, after all. Specifically, make a lot of Wish items (Told you we'd come back to Wish). Takes three hours and 250 points to make, so you can make three of these every two days. This is effectively Super Luck when you need it, letting you get critical successes on that Artist skill roll (default of 14, but who cares when you can dictate a critical success after you roll the dice)? Mmm, I love a good thought exercise. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 18:31:23 +1100 (EST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Alan=20Atkinson?= Subject: Re: thoughts about supers > It strikes me that with a superhero games, the > situation is similar. > Superman is never particularly worried about a > common thief doing much > damage to him (unless, of course, the thief happens > to be carrying > kryptonite with him). The only people that can > seriously bother him are > other supers. Wouldn't it be easier then, to think > of the supers scales > in different context, rather than maintaining a > single scale, which is > considered to have trouble when one goes into super > strength values? > > Eduardo Alvarez > http://www.great-atuin.net I do believe this concept was addressed in G:Bunnies & Burrows, where rabbits and other critters had their stats, and humans had theirs -- and never the twain shall meet. GURPS-Nut http://greetings.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Greetings - - Send some online love this Valentine's Day. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 17:25:23 +0900 From: tbone Subject: Re: Not So Supers [rant] On Thursday, February 13, 2003, at 07:15 AM, Emily Smirle wrote: At first, I wasn't sure what the message of the post was -- an overview of ST in GURPS, to show that this stat is actually handled nicely in the game? And as you hit some of my pet peeves, I started to reflexively respond: "But... any argument using the Extra Effort rules as support is only hurting itself, as those are uselessly broken where ST is concerned... and Natural ST is the epitome of the horrible kludge that should never have been necessary in the first place... and your example of 'the Super can go without sleep for 160 days', while true in the game, is actually an example of poorly-done fatigue rules... and the skill defaults from ST are examples of bad rules design as well... and..." My bad. Reading with more care, I see that your point is simply: Before we decry ST as "too expensive", we should take a good look at what it offers". You're completely right there. I recall, too, Dr Kromm on occasion noting the ways that ST can be more useful than many players give it credit for, even in a high-tech game. Now, I would still like to see the stat handled better in GURPS. There are my objections above, and others as well. As one example, super ST will automatically enable the legs to spring at super velocity, making super leaps... but oddly, there's no built-in mechanism for that same power to boost Move one whit. (I wouldn't call this "broken", or even a real problem; it's just a bit inelegant.) And even on the subject of costs, there remains room for argument over whether ST 1000, for all it confers, is still too expensive or too cheap or whatever... But, problems in the handling of the stat, and what its ideal cost should be, are peripheral to your post, I believe. I agree completely with the key point: Think carefully before taking an axe to the cost of ST 1000. The ability to hurl cars, punch through steel, and rip apart buildings is pretty amazing and shouldn't come at a bargain price. T. Bone tbone@io.com T. Bone's GURPS Diner http://www.io.com/~tbone/gurps/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 03:44:59 -0600 From: "Chris J. Whitcomb" Subject: Re: Not So Supers [rant free] From: "Emily Smirle" > so now that I've gotten my oppinion piece out of my system... > > If you're trying to build a super-strong character like Spiderman (or > even more so - Superman), and you're boggling at the points it takes, > there's a few things you have to consider: > > ST in GURPS isn't just lifting, although lifting is an easily measured > real-world unit. > > GURPS treats ST as a whole-body stat. By default if you have ST 800 in > your arms and back, you have it in your legs. If your arm muscles can > expand and contract fast enough to hurl a ST800 punch, your leg muscles > can do the same to propell *you* through a ST800 jump. This is a great > side effect for characters like Spiderman (who performs prodigious leaps > without even noticing) or Superman (leap tall buildings in a single > bound!), but if you have someone a little more grounded, you have a problem. > > So what to do if you don't want Superguy to be Superbouncy? > > You have two choices: > 1) Don't buy your ST that high (no fun) > 2) use the Natural ST limitation from Compendium 1 for the cost of all > strength over something reasonable, like 15 or 20. Or another option that someone mentioned a while back... Instead of scads of strength, use Psychokinesis with a touch-range limitation to represent superstrong lifting capacity. - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). 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