GURPSnet-Digest Saturday, February 15 2003 Volume 04 : Number 3774 In this issue: RE: Hibernation (Dis-)Advantage? RE: Not So Supers Re: Not So Supers Re: Die probabilities RE: Some thoughs on ST 800 Re: Not So Supers Re: [not-so-on-topic] Not So Supers Re: Psi skill: Aspect Re: Capabilities of Reflex Armor RE: Not So Supers Re: Die probabilities Re: thoughts about supers Superman as a Psychokinetic (was: Not So Supers) Re: Die probabilities Re: thoughts about supers Re: Superman as a Psychokinetic (was: Not So Supers) Re: Superman as a Psychokinetic (was: Not So Supers) Re: Superman as a Psychokinetic (was: Not So Supers) See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the GURPSnet-L or GURPSnet-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 07:54:00 -0500 From: "2/C Joinson" Subject: RE: Hibernation (Dis-)Advantage? Well, the way I wrote it, the slow metabolism only comes into play when the character turns to stone. The description states that anyone with 4 or more levels of it cannot even perceive normal beings and those beings would probably not even realize that the creature is alive. So I thought that would be a good way to simulate her being unable to see what is going on while she is a statue. Also, there should be a Link enhancement so that the two activate at the same time. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-gurpsnet-l@lists.io.com [mailto:owner-gurpsnet-l@lists.io.com] > On Behalf Of Clayten > Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 4:23 PM > To: gurpsnet-l > Subject: Re: Hibernation (Dis-)Advantage? > > I don't think it's really a slow-metabolism issue, for the most part > the character seems normal. I'd do it as an addiction, or a > dependency. Addiction has certain implications that don't fit, so > I'd use dependency. > > Now, she doesn't really have "Body of Stone", at least not in any > useful sense, she's just much less vulnerable than someone who falls > over and sleeps, without DR. She also is likely unaging in this form. > > I'd handle the Body of Stone issue by making the results of the > dependency less severe. It's not death after all. It's both more and > less severe than hibernation. With hibernation you don't get > DR10/Unaging, but you also get the ability to wake up with a will > roll, if circumstances require it. > > There are rules for damaging objects with much DR, even with tools > that don't inflict enough per hit to penetrate using a strict > interpretation. Because of this, she's still vulnerable when in > stone form, just not casually vulnerable. Someone could break her > head off with a pick, but she doesn't suffer elemental damage, or > from rough handling. It's helpful, but the really dangerous things > (enemies) are likely to put extra effort into killing her, so the > DR10 is almost a special effect. > > What is handy, is the ability to sleep for long periods of time. > Depending on how much control she has over this, and how much > control her friends have; maybe she can't wake up on her own, but > they can do something which causes her to. This is essentially the > power to go into stasis. She's be great on a slow space voyage. You > could thaw her out to perform a job, yet she wouldn't consume > resources or grow old while not needed. Depending on the campaign > this is a +1 quirk-level advantage, or +15 for lower life-support > and tolerance to radiation and high gravity (limitation: only while > hibernating). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 08:55:59 -0600 From: "Gabe Johanns" Subject: RE: Not So Supers I don't remember the mechanics of the Advantage but couldn't a version of Extra Encumbrance be used to simulate incredible lifting ability? - -----Original Message----- From: Volker Bach [mailto:bachv@paganet.de] Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 4:54 PM To: Matthew S Pulido; GURPSnet Subject: Re: Not So Supers On Wed, 12 Feb 2003 15:31:49 -0600, Matthew S Pulido wrote : > However, I am finding it hard to create high powered Supers or even decent > reproductions of low powered Marvel/DC Supers without the point costs being > extremely high. I really wouldn't worry about it. Point Cost isn't too much of an issue in Supers Games, even if you try to maintain the illusion that such powers can be compared and valued against each other meaningfully. Spiderman or Superman are more than likely to have massively high totals, as will most other Supers. That's why they're Supers. > For Example: Spider-Man. Spider-Man has a max lift of around 10 tons > depending on what version you are looking at and where he is in his career. > Figuring that off the extra effort column in Compendium I, Spider-Man would > have an ST of 92 or 93. That's just for someone at Spider-Man's level. And > that's figuring that his 10 ton lift isn't his Max Lift but is his Extra > Effort. So? If this is really a concern (and I don't think Spidey punches at ST 93) you could use QuadST to figure lift. Nonetheless, Spiderman is a very powerful character, esypecially in a game like GURPS that attaches very high point values to combat-effective Advantages. Not entirely unjustified, as you will see when GURPS Spiderman meets GURPS Bog-standard criminal. > Also, Spider-Man is far more agile than a normal human. What do we use as a > gauge for DXs over 20? Do you need to go that high? Due to the functions of the 3d6 system, anything much above 20 quickly becomes overkill. > This doesn't even take into account beings like Superman or The Hulk, who > seem well beyond GURPS limits. > > Superman can lift (according to several sources) 800000 Tons. Figuring that > from the extra effort column you would need a ST of about 803. 803! Granted, > that's probably the strongest hero you'd ever have to figure for but that > would be really expensive. "How many points do you give Superman?" "As many as he wants!" Really, I don't see this as an issue. You won't ever have to play-balance Superman. Just build him and figure out the points afterwards. The values in Supers are all broken anywho... Volker ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 10:23:39 -0500 From: andi jones Subject: Re: Not So Supers matthew s pulido wrote: >I have been a fan of GURPS for sometime and have recently really started >getting into it. I think it's a great system and believe it truly is >universal. > >However, I am finding it hard to create high powered Supers or even decent >reproductions of low powered Marvel/DC Supers without the point costs being >extremely high. my recommendation: forget the points. honestly, in supers, they just don't matter. it took me a long time to accept that, but in the end, i had no other choice. at low point levels, GURPS does a reasonably good job balancing what one advantage costs versus another. but as the abilities become more and more powerful, comparison on a *qualitative* scale becomes more and more difficult. and when that happens, comparisons on a *quantitative* scale become essentially meaningless. a super can buy the 'insubstantiality' advantage for 80 points. is this too good? it means that the character will never once be hit by a single bullet, fist, thrown car or explosion. that's pretty powerful, being immune to all physical attacks. i did GURPS supers, both with low-level batman-type characters and really powerful characters on par with adam warlock and doctor strange. when we did "low-level" stuff, the weakest characters were in the 500-750 points range. when we did the opposite end of things, we ultimately decided to almost ignore points entirely. one character had a magic item (modelled as a "super gadget") that was worth over 2,500 points alone. (something he got one session for doing an errand for a mysterious NPC.) another PC had been given an artifact called "the wand of world piece"; modelled as a gadget, it cost more than 100,000 points. (he never used it.) if you're going to run GURPS supers at a spider-man or higher level, worry less about the points and more about how the powers are going to affect your game. if, for example, you imagine your campaign as "daredevil against the criminal empire of the kingpin", and you give your PCs 500 points each, don't be too surprised when one of them comes back with a telepath good enough to foil all the mystery and intrigue you intended for the campaign. with 500 points, you can also buy a lot of DR; if the main bad-guys in the campaign were going to hordes of ninjas, they'll be pretty useless against a PC with DR sufficient to bounce 50-caliber machinegun bullets... one 500-point PC might put all his points into psionics, and still be vulnerable to being knifed by a thug in a bar-brawl, while that other 500-point PC is shrugging off machine gun fire. my advice: ask the players to provide you with a relatively detailed description of what their character can do, but not in game terms. just a description, of what his powers are and how/why they work. and where they came from. if the description of the powers and abilities seems interesting and reasonable, sit down and model it with the GURPS mechanics. if not all the PCs come out even, who cares? as i said before, comparisons at this level become meaningless. and what are character points if not a means of comparing one PC to another. any super you can make for 1000 points can be defeated by a customed-designed PC built on half that. which is the next thing i recommend: look over each character and figure out what their strengths are and what their weaknesses are. if all the PCs go in for super-ST, make your villains robots instead of ninjas. if the group is full of tough-guys with DR and armour, make the master villain a telepath who can mental stab from across the city... the telepath shouldn't be their adversary every session; that'd be persecuting the PCs. let them bash up their robots and ninjas in relative security most of the time, but when it comes time to graduate from flunkies to the arch-villain, it should (and can) get much harder... tailor your NPCs to the abilities of the PCs. if the PCs include a single telepath who is always reading the villains' minds and ruining your tightly-plotted adventures, make the bad-guys employ their own telepath(s), or introduce "psychotronic" devices to your campaign world. if the insubstantial super bypasses guards by walking through walls, invent a force-field that blocks incorporeal beings... is this unfair persecution of the heroes? maybe if you do it every session. but in the comics, there is *always* some situation that foils the heroes' powers, and as long as it's used sparingly and to good dramatic effect, it's fine. you're the GM, and you're in charge of the plot devices that keep everything running smoothly. as for the points, really, don't worry about it. below are links to some supers characters (some from my campaign) that appeared in "character of the week"; some were built on 10,000+ points, a couple closer to 100,000 points. and these characters are not invulnerable or indestructible; there were heroes in my campaign (including the PCs) who could deal with these characters. http://www.angelwerks.com/GURPS/shark.htm http://www.angelwerks.com/GURPS/flamethrower.htm http://www.angelwerks.com/GURPS/stratos.htm http://www.angelwerks.com/GURPS/landslide.htm http://www.angelwerks.com/GURPS/crane_desc.htm http://www.angelwerks.com/GURPS/ruby.htm http://www.angelwerks.com/GURPS/scion.htm end of line. - -- +------------------------------------------ + andi jones; illustrator, designer, bitnik + www.angelwerks.com +------------------------------------------ "thank you; i'll take over now. and let's have a little taste of.. a taste... little... a little taste of that ol' computer-generated s-s-swuh-s-swagger." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 16:22:40 +0100 From: "Joachim Schipper" Subject: Re: Die probabilities - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Clayten" To: "gurpsnet-l" Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 6:52 AM Subject: Die probabilities > I've been playing around with the curves from various number of dice > and I found a few combinations that I like. > > Rolling d4+d6+d8 gives a curve similar to 3d6, but with a shallower > curve, Rolling 2d4+d10 is shallower yet. > > Using either of these for your rolls means that you don't see the > huge success-rate jump quite so quickly past 10, and scores past 15 > aren't as pointless. Criticals are also slightly (.3%) more likely. > > I'd be curious to use d4+d6+d10 for D20 (AD&D 3rd Ed) gaming. With a > rework to keep stats more in this range, it might be interesting. No > more critical failures every 20th roll. > > If anyone is interested in the program I wrote to do this, it's in > perl and should run on just about anything. (I've only tested > Linux.) It prints neat little graphs, displays percentages and > totals, etc. > Hmm... interesting, but what's the point? Do you mean we should all use d4+d6+d8 in the future? As I said, interesting, but you might want to give a little more thought to possible uses... and disadvantages. - --- My outgoing mail is checked for viruses. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.449 / Virus Database: 251 - Release Date: 27-1-03 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 09:30:02 -0600 (CST) From: "Shai S. Laric" Subject: RE: Some thoughs on ST 800 Emily Smirle's posts about the 'Superman in G:Supers' stuff were excellent. I have one problem with ST800, though... while a lot of the described effects were fairly appropriate for most modern versions of Superman, the lift capability was woefully low. Waddling around with 12 tons? Holding up a 187,200 ton vehicle for over 13 minutes? A current US main battle tank (Abrams) is something like 70 tons. An aircraft carrier - which I know I've seen Superman lifting at least once in a post-1986 issue, though I stopped reading in 92 - displaces about 97,000 tons fully loaded, and that's *in the water*. Lifted out of a buoyant substance, I can't imagine how much it ways with a full airwing, lots and lots of aviation fuel, and all the other equipment. Now, I'm not a GURPS strength expert, and haven't run Supers for years, but it seems to me that in terms of lift & throw capabilities, he needs way more than 800 pts as described below: He can carry 24000 pounds (12 tons) and still waddle around. He can even pull a 240 ton vehicle on wheels or in water without risking slipped discs, strained muscles, or hernias. He can hold up 9360 tons for over 13 minutes, if he pushes himself, or pull a 187,200 ton vehicle for a similar length of time (for those that say GURPS weightlifting is linear, take an oogle at extra effort. When you have a ST of 800, you can get a 7800% bonus to your lifting weight and still be rolling against a 20 or less. The higher your ST, the more feedback you can get from extra effort.) Aside from that, I'm with Emily and some of the others all the way. High powered is high powered, Supers is broken, as Volker and others have said, and if you're going run a four color game, ignore point totals. Give Superman 4,000 points or 10,000 if you want, and scale the opposition accordingly. Few supers can come close to matching him head-on (a Green Lantern, maybe?), but in the comics all the writers do to handle this is come up with some new plot device. - - Shai ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 01:02:58 +0900 From: tbone Subject: Re: Not So Supers On Thursday, February 13, 2003, at 11:55 PM, Gabe Johanns wrote: > I don't remember the mechanics of the Advantage but couldn't a version > of Extra Encumbrance be used to simulate incredible lifting ability? By the mechanics, no; Extra Encumbrance boosts *carrying* ability but not *lifting* ability. (The distinction is meaningful and useful, especially for creatures like beasts of burden.) I personally would handle Super ST without added advantages, without psychokinetic special effects, without other complications -- and rather, just re-jig ST at the high end to mix damage, lifting ability, other related abilities, and cost, in the desired amounts. Easier said than done, I know... T. Bone tbone@io.com T. Bone's GURPS Diner http://www.io.com/~tbone/gurps/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 19:01:49 +0100 From: "Joachim Schipper" Subject: Re: [not-so-on-topic] Not So Supers - ----- Original Message ----- From: "tbone" To: "gnet" Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 5:02 PM Subject: Re: Not So Supers > > On Thursday, February 13, 2003, at 11:55 PM, Gabe Johanns wrote: > > > I don't remember the mechanics of the Advantage but couldn't a version > > of Extra Encumbrance be used to simulate incredible lifting ability? > > By the mechanics, no; Extra Encumbrance boosts *carrying* ability but > not *lifting* ability. (The distinction is meaningful and useful, > especially for creatures like beasts of burden.) See http://www.gamespy.com/comics/nodwick/gamespyarchive/gspynod064.html for one more prime example. [don't take it too serious, though... ;-) ] > I personally would handle Super ST without added advantages, without > psychokinetic special effects, without other complications -- and > rather, just re-jig ST at the high end to mix damage, lifting ability, > other related abilities, and cost, in the desired amounts. > > Easier said than done, I know... - --- My outgoing mail is checked for viruses. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.449 / Virus Database: 251 - Release Date: 27-1-03 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 12:43:18 -0600 From: Jeff Wilson Subject: Re: Psi skill: Aspect > From: Erik Holmes > Quick question on the Aspect skill for Telepathy. Can > it be resisted in any way? Yes. First off, it's just a reaction roll modifier; technically, prejudiced or close-minded people will not be subject to reaction rolls, or may be restricted in their range of reaction. For example, Yrthly Dwarves don't react any better than Poor to Elves, so even the worlds' most charming Elf won't get far in Dwarven society. Second, if the subject knows what's happening, by picking up the passive use of Telepathy with Psi Sense, or some kind of psionic energy detector, or perhaps being briefed on the subject before hand, he can consciously decide to discount any feelings about the Aspect user, similar to the way people become immune to Seduction if they find out you have VD. Thirdly, I have gone outside the rules and said that in my current game world that a Mind Shield's Power, Psionic Resistance, null field penalties, etc. each reduce the reaction bonus on a 1-for-1 basis, as long as they are active. >>From the way I read it there is no resistance roll for > the Charisma bonus, the power just works with a skill > roll. Does a mind shield help protect against it? In fact, it doesn't even need a skill roll, or even a skill! Anyone with Telepathy 10+ can have an aspect, but you need the skill to control it, switch it off and on, change it, etc. - -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson@io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson/gurps/ > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 12:47:53 -0600 From: Jeff Wilson Subject: Re: Capabilities of Reflex Armor > From: "Troy Guffey" > According to Ultra-Tech, reflex armor has sensors that detect incoming > attacks, then harden the suit's material to rigidity, giving extra DR and > rigidity. > > Situation: A guy wearing reflex armor ends up prone under some kind of > really heavy crate (like at least 1/2 ton) that WAS suspended. It breaks > loose and drops onto his legs. > > Would the 'flex go rigid? Would it do any good? I would say yes, that its full DR would subtract from damage done by the falling crate, and that the armor would stay rigid as long as there was a dangerous amount of pressure on it from the crate, or until the power gave out. On "soft" surfaces, like earth or asphalt, the armored person might sink in from the force of the fallen object, and be trapped but safe when the armor relaxes. - -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson@io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson/gurps/ > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 13:48:51 -0500 From: blaquepsmith@netscape.net (Blaquepsmith) Subject: RE: Not So Supers "McCarty-Eigenmann" wrote: >well, beside being one of the sillier heros - he's too powerful to ever >be really threatened. > >Try SUPER STATS! > >Someone suggested - years back - superstats - superstrength as an >advantage. > >You paid 50pts per level iirc, and got the ability to lift ST*10 tons >for level one, ST*100 tons for level two, etc. > >Just rebadge it. > >Anyway - the big boyscout should be mega points. > >If you think he's tough to generate I suggest you look at Dr Manhattan >or even better - any of the Authority, especially the Doctor. > > I posted something like this in the GURPSnet archives several years ago. i think its still there. - -Mike - -- "No ONE of us is as smart as ALL of us." __________________________________________________________________ The NEW Netscape 7.0 browser is now available. Upgrade now! http://channels.netscape.com/ns/browsers/download.jsp Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 17:45:57 -0800 From: Clayten Subject: Re: Die probabilities Joachim Schipper wrote: > From: "Clayten" >>I've been playing around with the curves from various number of dice >>and I found a few combinations that I like. >> >>Rolling d4+d6+d8 gives a curve similar to 3d6, but with a shallower >>curve, Rolling 2d4+d10 is shallower yet. >> > Hmm... interesting, but what's the point? Do you mean we should all use > d4+d6+d8 in the future? As I said, interesting, but you might want to give a > little more thought to possible uses... and disadvantages. > Well, no, I don't necessarily think you should switch. The point is just that I was fiddling with different ways of rolling, curious about what they looked like, and to find possible alternatives. Uses and disadvantages are detailed below, as far as I've considered it. I'm going to playtest it a bit, see if I can notice a difference, and it's something that those into game design might care about. A slightly shallower curve makes each point of skill less effective, encouraging characters to have a wider range of skills. For instance, with 3d6 a score of 15 is 95.4% likely to succeed, with d4,d6,d8 it's 94.8% and with 2d4,d10 it's 93.8%. Going from skill 10 to 11 with 3d6 gives a 12.5% increase, d4,d6,d8 is a 12% increase, and 2d4,d10 is a 10% increase. Currently someone with a 17 skill takes only a 2.1% penalty for a roll at -2, someone at skill 12 takes 24.1% penalty. When rolling 2d4,d10 going from 17 to 15 is -5.6% while 12 to 10 is -20%. A character with a lower skill roll isn't quite as penalized when attempting something difficult, and it's not a freebie for a skilled character. This means you don't get as much benefit from initial points into a skill, with one of the alternate methods. This does mean that a character is going to be slightly less effective, in an absolute sense, at any given skill level, but it also means they'll take less of a penalty for a negative. Specialists are slightly better off, skills get more expensive the higher above your stat you go (dx+2, etc), but the returns won't diminish quite as quickly as with 3d6, so you benefit more. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 08:12:42 +0100 (MET) From: "Onno Meyer" Subject: Re: thoughts about supers > It strikes me that with a superhero games, the situation is similar. > Superman is never particularly worried about a common thief doing much > damage to him (unless, of course, the thief happens to be carrying > kryptonite with him). The only people that can seriously bother him are > other supers. Wouldn't it be easier then, to think of the supers scales > in different context, rather than maintaining a single scale, which is > considered to have trouble when one goes into super strength values? > > Eduardo Alvarez Of course the problem comes when Superman - or another super - tries to interact with the real world. How far can he throw a supertanker, exactly? If Superman had a ST on the common scales, the GM could consult the throwing table before he starts to worry about the structural integrity of the ship (or not, in a cinematic game). Say some supervillain with more ST than superman tries to batter him with a lightpole. Is that "club" suitable to do some damage, or will it be like a normal human being beaten with a loaf of baguette bread (i.e. the "club" will shatter for little or no damage)? A DR rating for Superman might help to make the call. Onno ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 18:13:00 +1100 (EST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Alan=20Atkinson?= Subject: Superman as a Psychokinetic (was: Not So Supers) > Or another option that someone mentioned a while > back... > Instead of scads of strength, use Psychokinesis with > a touch-range > limitation to represent superstrong lifting > capacity. And harkening back to ye olde Man of Steel; there have been the merest hints that this is the source of his strength. Consider the following: 1) when his powers are drained (via kryptonite, magic or good ol' red sunlight) he doesn't get any less muscular or mass any less. He just can't lift as much. 2) it has already been established that his invulnerability is actually a field that extends millimeters from the surface of his skin, thus allowing his (skin-tight) costume to survive many attacks that would otherwise shred it; the only things that actually damage it are things that can actually hurt him, too. 2a) Superboy's powers were modelled as closely as possible from Superman's, up to the point that Green K also affects him. *His* powers are definitively all psionic in nature, from a skin-level force-field (that lapses while he is unconscious or asleep; obviously Superman's is of a better quality) to his vaunted 'tactile telekinesis' -- psychokinesis that works via touch, no? 3) in one adventure, an alien observing Superman's heat vision in action describes it as a directional version of pyrokinesis -- which it basically is. More psychokinesis in action? So it seems to me that the use of touch-only TK to simulate really high levels of ST is already established -- go for it. Cheers, GURPS-Nut http://greetings.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Greetings - - Send some online love this Valentine's Day. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 22:45:38 +1300 From: "Rupert Boleyn" Subject: Re: Die probabilities On 12 Feb 2003 at 21:52, Clayten wrote: > I'd be curious to use d4+d6+d10 for D20 (AD&D 3rd Ed) gaming. With a > rework to keep stats more in this range, it might be interesting. No > more critical failures every 20th roll. What critical failures every 20 rolls? A natural '1' is only an automatic, but ordinary failure for attacks and saves. For skills and stats checks it isn't even an automatic failure, though there are a few skills for which a natural '1' that fails results in something nasty happening. - -- Rupert Boleyn The media industry is a long, dark, narrow hallway where thieves and pimps run free and good people die like dogs. There is also a negative side. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 08:23:51 -0500 From: Emily Smirle Subject: Re: thoughts about supers Onno Meyer wrote: > Say some supervillain with more ST than superman tries to batter him > with a lightpole. Is that "club" suitable to do some damage, or will > it be like a normal human being beaten with a loaf of baguette bread > (i.e. the "club" will shatter for little or no damage)? Depends, is the baguette fresh or stale? *Grin, duck, run* - -- "Is he an evil outsider?" "Well, he was one of the loners in evil kindergarten..." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 15:14:02 -0600 From: Matthew S Pulido Subject: Re: Superman as a Psychokinetic (was: Not So Supers) I have to somewhat disagree with you. > Consider the following: > > 1) when his powers are drained (via kryptonite, magic > or good ol' red sunlight) he doesn't get any less > muscular or mass any less. He just can't lift as > much. This is all based on The Superman Sourcebook for the old DC Heroes game that was written by Superman writer Roger Stern who was the writer on Action comics at the time. This is all Post-Crisis and post Man of Steel. "Superman's powers spring from the way his body channels the solar energy he has absorbed over the years. With a few notable exceptions, most of Superman's remarkable powers can be seen as extensions or extrapolations of normal abilities of human beings." > 2) it has already been established that his > invulnerability is actually a field that extends > millimeters from the surface of his skin, thus > allowing his (skin-tight) costume to survive many > attacks that would otherwise shred it; the only things > that actually damage it are things that can actually > hurt him, too. Again, from Roger Stern: "Superman's Kyrptonian body cells, while superficially similar to human cells, are much tougher and more durable. The structure of these cells after years of exposure to solar energy have rendered Superman virtually indestructible. This accounts for his high BODY score. Superman's natural bio-electric aura adds to his invulnerability. His aura acts somewhat like a very thin forcer-field in that anything in close contact with his skin (such as his costume) is, for all practical purposes, as indestructible as Superman." > 2a) Superboy's powers were modelled as closely as > possible from Superman's, up to the point that Green K > also affects him. *His* powers are definitively all > psionic in nature, from a skin-level force-field (that > lapses while he is unconscious or asleep; obviously > Superman's is of a better quality) to his vaunted > 'tactile telekinesis' -- psychokinesis that works via > touch, no? This is very true. But you are forgetting that the scientists who made Superboy could not breach the gap of Kryptonian DNA so they found a way to SIMULATE Superman's powers. > 3) in one adventure, an alien observing Superman's > heat vision in action describes it as a directional > version of pyrokinesis -- which it basically is. More > psychokinesis in action? Back to Stern: "Superman can release excess solar energy through his eyes as coherent beams of radiant heat. The beams emitted by his Heat Vision are normally invisible, but they may sometimes be visible, depending on atmospheric conditions." He goes on to say: "The strength of his heat beams gradually diminishes if he uses them continually or to excess." So it's basically a solar exhaust system. The more he uses it the less power he has available to him. Now, where Stern does mention telekinesis is under flight: Superman is apparently able to defy gravity and fly by force of will, hence his Flight Power. The closest human analog to this power would be in the never-well-documented telekinetic levitation by purported psychics. There is obviously more to Superman's flight capabilities than a simple power of levitation. Superman has been observed flying enormous objects, such as yachts and jumbo jets, through the air with little regard to the mass or structural integrity of those objects. He has noticed, once he leaves the ground, any object he is carrying seems to become lighter (Man of Steel #4). Superman does not have the Telekinesis Power (In DC Heroes), since he is not able to levitate objects that he is not carrying. His Flight and STR account for this phenomenon (In Dc Heroes). Talison - -- "I'm the man of the hour, the man with the power, too sweet to be sour." "Superstar" Billy Graham ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 17:35:06 +1100 (EST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Alan=20Atkinson?= Subject: Re: Superman as a Psychokinetic (was: Not So Supers) --- Matthew S Pulido wrote: > > I have to somewhat disagree with you. Perhaps I should have also added YMMV. > > > Consider the following: > > > > 1) when his powers are drained (via kryptonite, > magic > > or good ol' red sunlight) he doesn't get any less > > muscular or mass any less. He just can't lift as > > much. > > This is all based on The Superman Sourcebook for the > old DC Heroes game that > was written by Superman writer Roger Stern who was > the writer on Action > comics at the time. This is all Post-Crisis and post > Man of Steel. > > "Superman's powers spring from the way his body > channels the solar energy he > has absorbed over the years. With a few notable > exceptions, most of > Superman's remarkable powers can be seen as > extensions or extrapolations of > normal abilities of human beings." So he has PK that is activated by absorbed solar energy. :-P > > > > 2) it has already been established that his > > invulnerability is actually a field that extends > > millimeters from the surface of his skin, thus > > allowing his (skin-tight) costume to survive many > > attacks that would otherwise shred it; the only > things > > that actually damage it are things that can > actually > > hurt him, too. > > Again, from Roger Stern: > > "Superman's Kyrptonian body cells, while > superficially similar to human > cells, are much tougher and more durable. The > structure of these cells after > years of exposure to solar energy have rendered > Superman virtually > indestructible. This accounts for his high BODY > score. Superman's natural > bio-electric aura adds to his invulnerability. His > aura acts somewhat like a > very thin forcer-field in that anything in close > contact with his skin (such > as his costume) is, for all practical purposes, as > indestructible as > Superman." > ... except when his powers are drained, which has happened many times over the years. My point here is that Superman powered and Superman unpowered are outwardly identical. When he doesn't have his powers (for whatever reason) his cells are no more tough or durable than Joe Blow's, or Jimmy Olsen's for that matter. As for 'bio-electric aura', that to me sounds fairly close to a skin-level TK field .. :-P > > > 2a) Superboy's powers were modelled as closely as > > possible from Superman's, up to the point that > Green K > > also affects him. *His* powers are definitively > all > > psionic in nature, from a skin-level force-field > (that > > lapses while he is unconscious or asleep; > obviously > > Superman's is of a better quality) to his vaunted > > 'tactile telekinesis' -- psychokinesis that works > via > > touch, no? > > This is very true. But you are forgetting that the > scientists who made > Superboy could not breach the gap of Kryptonian DNA > so they found a way to > SIMULATE Superman's powers. ... so well that S-boy ended up with the vulnerability to Green K (not something you'd want to build in). Which argues that the powers that both have must be related in some deep fashion. > > > 3) in one adventure, an alien observing Superman's > > heat vision in action describes it as a > directional > > version of pyrokinesis -- which it basically is. > More > > psychokinesis in action? > > Back to Stern: > > "Superman can release excess solar energy through > his eyes as coherent beams > of radiant heat. The beams emitted by his Heat > Vision are normally > invisible, but they may sometimes be visible, > depending on atmospheric > conditions." > > He goes on to say: > > "The strength of his heat beams gradually diminishes > if he uses them > continually or to excess." > > So it's basically a solar exhaust system. The more > he uses it the less power > he has available to him. Yup. Or, game-wise, it could just as easily be pyrokinesis with the limitation "line of sight". :-) > > Now, where Stern does mention telekinesis is under > flight: > > Superman is apparently able to defy gravity and fly > by force of will, hence > his Flight Power. The closest human analog to this > power would be in the > never-well-documented telekinetic levitation by > purported psychics. There is > obviously more to Superman's flight capabilities > than a simple power of > levitation. Superman has been observed flying > enormous objects, such as > yachts and jumbo jets, through the air with little > regard to the mass or > structural integrity of those objects. He has > noticed, once he leaves the > ground, any object he is carrying seems to become > lighter (Man of Steel #4). > Superman does not have the Telekinesis Power (In DC > Heroes), since he is not > able to levitate objects that he is not carrying. > His Flight and STR account > for this phenomenon (In Dc Heroes). Or it's TK with the features Touch Only and Reinforces Heavy Objects. :-P And let's not forget his 'super-breath' which seems to be able to freeze objects -- cryokinesis, anyone? Once again, YMMV. But seems ta me that Supes could be relatively easily defined as a high-end psychokinetic with specific limitations and enhancements. If you ignore canon, of course. Cheers, GURPS-Nut http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Mobile - - Exchange IMs with Messenger friends on your Telstra or Vodafone mobile phone. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 02:05:37 -0600 From: Matthew S Pulido Subject: Re: Superman as a Psychokinetic (was: Not So Supers) >> I have to somewhat disagree with you. > > Perhaps I should have also added YMMV. I don't know what that means. > So he has PK that is activated by absorbed solar > energy. :-P It very well could be. I've always looked at it as him burning solar fuel to do amazing things with no real physical explanation. > ... except when his powers are drained, which has > happened many times over the years. My point here is > that Superman powered and Superman unpowered are > outwardly identical. When he doesn't have his powers > (for whatever reason) his cells are no more tough or > durable than Joe Blow's, or Jimmy Olsen's for that > matter. As for 'bio-electric aura', that to me sounds > fairly close to a skin-level TK field .. :-P As I said, I was only somewhat disagreeing with you. But I think Sterns point is that even unpowered he is a bit tougher than a normal man his size. Remember that in current continuity not all Kryptonian's would have powers under a yellow sun. But do top their genetic engineering they all seem healthier and tougher than the average human. > ... so well that S-boy ended up with the vulnerability > to Green K (not something you'd want to build in). > Which argues that the powers that both have must be > related in some deep fashion. No, it argues that Kryptonian DNA or anything close to it is affected by the radiation Kryptonite puts out. Again, normal Kryponians react badly to Kryptonite. Their biochemistry is different than ours and that particular type of radiation effects them far greater then it does us. > Yup. Or, game-wise, it could just as easily be > pyrokinesis with the limitation "line of sight". :-) Could be. I'm not really arguing game-wise. But IU agree you could handle it that way game-wise and throw any explanation on it that you wanted to. I would handle it with the Laser power from GURPS Supers myself. > Or it's TK with the features Touch Only and Reinforces > Heavy Objects. :-P It's a possibility. Stern did say that game-wise (in DC Heroes) his Strength Stat and Flight Power handled it, but that the "real world" explanation was unknown. > And let's not forget his 'super-breath' which seems to > be able to freeze objects -- cryokinesis, anyone? Actually the ice breath is a product of the movies and cartoons. In the comics it is just a powerful gust of air. > Once again, YMMV. Once again, I don't know what that means. > But seems ta me that Supes could be relatively easily > defined as a high-end psychokinetic with specific > limitations and enhancements. To that I am not arguing. In fact I highly agree. > If you ignore canon, of course. Which I tend not to. But it's an interesting discussion none the less. Talison - -- "Horus was weak. Horus was a fool. He had the whole galaxy within his grasp and he let it slip away." Abaddon The Despoiler, Warmaster of Chaos ------------------------------ End of GURPSnet-Digest V4 #3774 ******************************* To subscribe to GURPSnet-Digest, send the command: subscribe GURPSnet-Digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@io.com". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-testlist": subscribe GURPSnet-Digest local-testlist@your.domain.net A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "GURPSnet-Digest" in the commands above with "GURPSnet-L". --==IFJRGLKFGIR26167UHRUHIHD--